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Are international IDs acceptable for notarizations?

A person holding up passport

Updated 11-6-23. A signer from another country asks for a notarization. The only ID he has is a passport from his country. Your first question is: Can I accept this?

To accept foreign IDs, they must meet the requirements of your state's Notary laws. Here are some examples of state rules regarding foreign IDs.

Foreign passports

Foreign passports are the most commonly acceptable form of foreign identification for notarization, but state laws vary on the requirements.

One common requirement is that the passport must be stamped by USCIS. Among the states with laws allowing Notaries to accept a properly stamped foreign passport are Florida, GeorgiaNebraska and Tennessee.

Other states that allow foreign passports do not specify that they must be stamped. These include Iowa, Mississippi, MontanaNorth Dakota, Oregon, Utah and West Virginia. With the exception of Mississippi and Utah, these states allow expired passports so long as the date of expiration is not more than three years before of the notarization.

Some states have more stringent requirements for foreign passports. California and Tennessee, for example, require all foreign passports to include a serial or ID number as well as a photo, physical description and signature of the holder (California Notaries may accept a foreign passport without a USCIS stamp). Florida requires a foreign passport to include a serial or identifying number and to be current or if expired, issued within the past 5 years. Massachusetts requires passports to contain a signature and photograph. Oregon requires a foreign passport to be from a nation federally recognized by the United States.

In Arizona, a foreign passport may be used to identify signers for documents conveying or financing real property, and in Texas, for a deed or other document relating to a residential real estate transaction. However, neither of these states allow a foreign passport to be used for any other type of document.

Other types of international identification

State laws allow Notaries to accept very few other foreign IDs.

California allows driver’s licenses issued by Mexico and Canada that contain a serial number, photograph, physical description and signature. Florida also allows these driver’s licenses if the license has a serial number. In both of these states, the license does not have to be current as long as it was issued within the past five years.

In Arizona, when dealing with real estate conveyances and financing, you may accept any other valid, unexpired ID that is acceptable to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to establish an individual’s legal presence in the United States and that is accompanied by supporting documents as required by DHS. Notaries in the state may check the Arizona Notary Public Reference Manual for more information.

One type of ID that causes confusion is a consular ID issued by the consulate of a foreign country. Matricula consular cards issued by Mexican consulates are among the most common of these. They look very official and reliable — especially the newer versions — but only Notaries in Illinois and Nevada are specifically allowed to accept them. Matricula cards have been controversial in the past because of concerns that they are vulnerable to fraud. California Notaries may accept foreign consular IDs as proof of identity under a 2017 state law if the ID is current or issued in the past five years, has a serial or identification number, and contains the signature, photograph and description of the bearer.  However, some Mexican matricula consular cards may not be acceptable under California law because they lack a physical description of the bearer.

Where guidance about IDs is not provided

Many states do not mention foreign passports or foreign IDs by name in their laws, but present a list of general requirements for any IDs Notaries may accept.

If you are a Notary in one of these states, check your state’s Notary handbook or commissioning agency’s website for guidance. For example, Georgia’s Notary Handbook lists a foreign passport duly stamped by the USCIS as an example of an ID that Notaries may accept from a signer as satisfactory evidence of identity.

If a signer has no acceptable identification at all, depending on the state you may instead be able to rely on one or more credible identifying witnesses regardless of citizenship or immigration status. In addition, for Notaries in Delaware and Virginia, a signer may present an alien registration card (U.S. Permanent Resident or “green” card) with a photograph.

Foreign IDs that Notaries should not accept

Don’t forget that foreign IDs also are often printed in a foreign language. Unless you understand the language on your client’s passport or the passport contains an English translation within it, you shouldn’t accept it, because you wouldn’t be able to verify the particulars of your client’s identity. Of course, under no circumstances should you rely on a third party to translate information for you.

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68 Comments

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Steve Williams

27 Nov 2023

Your article states that a foreign passport can be used in Texas for a deed “ . . . or other document relating to a residential real-estate transaction.” The words “other document” seem to be very ambiguous - how liberally can I translate those words? If I’m notarizing the entire closing package, including lender docs, is the foreign passport still acceptable?

National Notary Association

30 Nov 2023

“Credential means a valid, unexpired identification card or other document issued by the federal government or any state government, as defined by §311.05 of the Government Code, that contains the photograph and signature of the principal. With respect to a deed or other instrument relating to a residential real estate transaction, credential also includes a current passport issued by a foreign country” (1 TAC 87.1[1]).

Samanthia

27 Nov 2023

State of TN- We have a lot of Amish in our communities. They do not have any type of ID. Can a document be notarized and use the known by section of our notary log. What is they are not known by anyone other than those that live in their community or they do not have anyone around them?

National Notary Association

30 Nov 2023

Hello. In Tennessee, by law, individuals acknowledging their signatures on documents must be identified either through personal knowledge or satisfactory evidence (TCA 8-16-112), as defined below. Personal Knowledge: “For purposes of this chapter, ‘know’ or ‘personally acquainted with’ means having an acquaintance, derived from association with the individual in relation to other people and based upon a chain of circumstances surrounding the individual, which establishes the individual’s identity with at least reasonable certainty” (TCA 66-22-106[b]). In addition, the ruling in Figuers v. Fly, 137 Tenn. 358, 193 S.W. 117 (1916), may be helpful: “The phrase ‘with whom I am personally acquainted’ in ... a [notarial] certificate means a knowledge independent and complete in itself, and existing without other information, and it imports more than a slight or superficial knowledge.” Satisfactory Evidence: “For the purposes of this chapter ‘satisfactory evidence’ means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person making the acknowledgment is not the individual he or she claims to be and any one (1) of the following: “1. The oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally known to the officer that the person making the acknowledgment is personally known to the witness. “2. Reasonable reliance on the presentation to the officer of any one of the following, if the document is current or has been issued within five (5) years: “A. An identification card or driver’s license issued by the department of safety; or “B. A passport issued by the United States department of state. “3. Reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one (1) of the following, if the document is current or has been issued within five (5) years and contains a photograph and description of the person named on it, is signed by the person, bears a serial or other identifying number, and, in the event that the document is a passport, has been stamped by the United States immigration and naturalization service: “A. A passport issued by a foreign government; “B. A driver’s license issued by a state other than Tennessee; “C. An identification card issued by a state other than Tennessee; or “D. An identification card issued by any branch of the armed forces of the United States” (TCA 66- 22-106[c]).

Patricia Tyler

27 Nov 2023

(Florida) USCIS stamps are no longer being used on foreign passports upon entry into the U.S. CBP has gone digital and are generating digital I-94 records. The foreign person cannot show an entry stamp to the notary as proof of ID under FL Statute 117.05. How then do we comply with this law if a foreign passport is the only ID a client has?

National Notary Association

23 Feb 2024

Unfortunately, the law specifies that the passport must be stamped. It does not have allowance for any type of other documents that can be used to prove legal presence in the United States.

Justice Cynthia Viloria

05 Aug 2023

US INS LAW 16: All Foreign Nationals applying for US Residence must use the Legal INS Forms and must be NOTARIZED by a US Notary if required, and with their Country Passport as proof of their good intention to reside in the country USA.

Nancy

28 Jul 2023

In Texas, can a Military ID (Geneva Conventions Identification Card) be used to ID a signer? I know Texas requires a current ID with photo and signature. The Geneva Conventions ID Card has photo and an expiration date, but not a signature.

National Notary Association

31 Jul 2023

Hello. You may not accept an ID from a signer that does not include the required elements listed in state Notary law.

Sally

22 Jul 2023

Can an Australian citizen use their Aus passport as a form of ID when signing a real estate deed to property located in Missouri that he is needing notarized?

National Notary Association

24 Jul 2023

Hello. No, an Australian passport may not be used. No acknowledgment of a document affecting real estate may be taken in Missouri unless the Missouri notarizing officer either (a) personally knows the acknowledger, or (b) bases the identification on at least two credible witnesses (RSMo 442.200). The names and places of residence of these credible witnesses must be inserted on the certificate (RSMo 442.210).

Betsy

19 Jul 2023

What qualifies as a USCIS Stamp for foreign issued passports in Florida? Does a student visa stamp qualify?

National Notary Association

07 Aug 2023

A student visa does qualify as a UCIS stamp, however, the passport must accompany the visa.

S

12 Jul 2023

New York.

National Notary Association

12 Jul 2023

Thank you. No, New York Notaries cannot accept expired identification as proof of identity. “(b) For any individual signing a document who physically appears before a notary public, satisfactory evidence of identity requires identity verification through: “(1) presentation of the back and front of an identification card issued by a governmental agency provided the card: “(i) is valid and current; “(ii) contains the photographic image of the bearer; “(iii) has an accurate physical description of the bearer, if applicable; and “(iv) includes the signature of the bearer; “(2) at least two current documents issued by an institution, business entity, or federal or state government with at least the individual’s signature; “(3) attestation by the notary that the individual is personally known to them; “(4) the oath or affirmation of a witness who is personally known to both the individual and notary; or “(5) the oath or affirmation of two witnesses who know the individual personally and provide identification that meets the requirements of paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of this section” (19 NYCRR 182.5[b]).

s

11 Jul 2023

My spouse is undocumented and only has his expired foreign passport. If I want to obtain a passport for minor children, can he used that document to provide proof of his identity to have the form notzrized?

National Notary Association

12 Jul 2023

Hello. To help us answer your question, can you please tell us what state you are located in?

Lorraine Pereverziev

06 Dec 2022

Interesting that California requires a physical description on a foreign passport when there isn't even one on a US passport, but a US Passport is still considered a valid form of ID, according to the Secretary of State.

Jacqueline Phillips

22 Nov 2022

Virginia law allows a foreign passport as one of the nine IDs for identification of a signer.

Bernadet5e Fernando

22 Nov 2022

Thank you for the infor

Jackie

21 Nov 2022

I am a notary in Florida where Foreign passports are required to have UCIS stamp. 1st - does it matter how old the stamp is? 2nd - Passports are not always stamped upon entry. It is done electronically in many cases. Is there an acceptable way to handle this? This is common with Canadians and Brits entering the US.

National Notary Association

13 Dec 2022

Notary law only indicates that the foreign passport must be stamped. The law does not elaborate on the age of the stamp, nor does it address any alternative methods re: electronic means of entry in to the United States.

Marcia Franklin

21 Nov 2022

What is the law for Michigan ?

National Notary Association

30 Nov 2022

Hello. In Michigan, a signer may be “(c) Identified on the basis of a current license, identification card, or record issued by a federal or state government that contains the person’s photograph and signature” (MCL 55.285[6]).”

CAROL

11 Apr 2022

California- If you personally know the person signing a foreign document but the document being notarized has the person's maiden last name listed instead of her married last name. Can you still notarized this form?

National Notary Association

19 Apr 2022

Hello. California Notaries are not permitted to identify signers through personal knowledge. Please see this article for more information: https://www.nationalnotary.org/notary-bulletin/blog/2017/04/3-facts-california-notaries-identifying-signers

Lorraine W. Pereverziev

08 Nov 2021

I'm a bit confounded by the requirement that the passport have a physical description... "California and Tennessee, for example, require all foreign passports to include a serial or ID number as well as a photo, physical description and signature of the holder" Even our US Passports do not contain any such physical description, so why would anyone else's?

Joyce C Krauchuk

08 Nov 2021

Re Monica's comment below re PA.. She referred to the year 2017, and you asked where she got that info from. October 2017 is when re-written notary laws in PA became effective for us. I would refer you to our most current law for notaries.

LYDIA MOORE

08 Nov 2021

Can you provide the guidelines for Nevada, with regard to use of foreign passports, Matricula Consular documents, or foreign driver's licenses. Also, it may be helpful, at the end of these types of articles, to have a quick table of all states, and their requirements or acceptance of the documents being reviewed. Thank you for your time and assistance.

National Notary Association

12 Nov 2021

In Nevada, “[A] notarial officer has satisfactory evidence that a person is the person whose signature is on a document if the person: “(a) Is personally known to the notarial officer; “(b) Is identified upon the oath or affirmation of a credible witness who personally appears before the notarial officer; “(c) Is identified on the basis of an identifying document which contains a signature and a photograph; “(d) Is identified on the basis of a consular identification card; “(e) Is identified upon an oath or affirmation of a subscribing witness who is personally known to the notarial officer; or “(f) In the case of a person who is 65 years of age or older and cannot satisfy the requirements of paragraphs (a) to (e), inclusive, is identified upon the basis of an identification card issued by a governmental agency or a senior citizen center” (NRS 240.1655.4).

Aida Gonzalez

08 Nov 2021

Hello, I'm in Florida, as a signing agent I can accept foreign passports stamped by USCIS, but I had a past experience. The passport was issued in Venezuela and was stamped by the US by USCIS, the visa was active, but the passport was expired; the person renew his passport and showed it to me, but doesn't have the Visa stamped. What should I do in this case? One expired passport has the Visa active but the renewed passport doesn't have any stamps at all.

National Notary Association

12 Nov 2021

Based on what you’ve described, we think it would be best if you contacted our Hotline team by phone so they can assist you with this situation. The NNA Hotline: 1-888-876-0827 Mon – Fri: 5:00 a.m. – 7:00 p.m. (PT) Saturday: 5:00 a.m. – 5:00 p.m. (PT) If you’re not an NNA Member or Hotline Subscriber, they will provide you with a one-time courtesy call.

June Elizabeth Siegel-Hill

08 Nov 2021

Virginia

National Notary Association

08 Nov 2021

Hello. Virginia Notaries may accept a foreign passport as proof of signer identity provided the passport is current and bears a photographic image and signature of the bearer (COV 47.1-2).

June S.

08 Nov 2021

I had a seller's package last week and all they had were Chinese passports. I saw nothing about this in our handbook. I'd love to know if I was correct in accepting them.

National Notary Association

08 Nov 2021

Hello. To help us answer your question, can you please tell us what state you are commissioned in?

Carl

06 Jul 2021

Can I use the Matricula Consular of Guatemala to notarize in Florida the signature a of a person who does not legally reside in the United States.

National Notary Association

03 Aug 2021

No, a Matricula ID card may not be used to identify a signer in Florida regardless of the person’s immigration status.

Norma Judy Faust

12 Feb 2021

If an international student has lost their passport and want to apply for a replacement but they do not have any other ID and they only have copies of the original how can you notarize the application without and ID? in Arizona

National Notary Association

25 Feb 2021

Hello. If the signer is not personally known to the Notary and lacks other satisfactory proof of identity, the signer can be identified through a credible witness who personally knows both the Notary and signer, or a credible witness who personally knows the signer and can present the following ID to the Notary: (i) An unexpired driver license or nonoperating identification license that is issued by a state or territory of the United States. (ii) An unexpired passport that is issued by the United States department of state. (iii) An unexpired identification card that is issued by any branch of the United States armed forces. (iv) An inmate identification card that is issued by the state department of corrections, if the inmate is in the custody of the department. (v) Any form of inmate identification that is issued by a county sheriff, if the inmate is in the custody of the county sheriff. (vi) Any other unexpired identification card that is issued by the United States government or a state or tribal government, that contains the individual’s photograph, signature and physical description and that contains the individual’s height, weight, hair color of hair and eye color of eyes.

Jasmin P

11 Nov 2020

In California, is a residency card, Mexican ID or driver license acceptable forms of identification?

National Notary Association

13 Nov 2020

Please see here for detailed information on acceptable forms of ID in California: https://www.nationalnotary.org/notary-bulletin/blog/2017/04/3-facts-california-notaries-identifying-signers

Lisa M. Gullet

10 Nov 2020

Great article all around. Thank you.

Tica Wilson

06 May 2020

Are current foreign passports acceptable forms of identification for Maryland?

National Notary Association

07 May 2020

Hello. Maryland does not provide specific guidelines for signer identification. The Handbook for Notaries Public published by the Maryland Secretary of State's office says: “Satisfactory proof is that amount of proof which is sufficient to convince the notary public that the person making the acknowledgment is the person described in the document, and the one who executed it. A good rule for a notary public to follow would be to require such proof of identification as he or she would require to cash a very large check for that person” (HNP).

Darlene Kramer

26 Feb 2020

Can a Texas notary notarize a letter with a person only having a Mexico ID? They live in Texas but do not have a Texas Driver's License.

National Notary Association

27 Feb 2020

Hello. The only foreign ID a Texas Notary may accept is a current passport issued by a foreign country, and a foreign passport can only be accepted as proof of signer identity when notarizing a deed or other instrument related to a residential real estate transaction (CPRC 121.005[b][3]).

William Labkoff

17 Feb 2020

Re: Use of foreign passport in Oregon.. You state::Oregon requires a foreign passport to be from a nation federally recognized by the United States: I never heard of "foreign nations federally recognized by the U.S. The actual law states ORS 194.240 (2)(a) by means of : "A United States passport or an officially recognized passport of a foreign county" BE MORE CAREFUL with the use of the English language ! ! ! ! !

Justice Cynthia Gundan Viloria

28 Oct 2019

Foreign passports are the most commonly acceptable form of foreign identification for notarization, but state laws vary on the requirements. One common requirement is that the passport must be stamped by USCIS. Should the Foreign Passport has NO ENTRY SEAL by the US CITIZENSHIP and IMMIGRATION SERVICES and worst expired, therefore the person submitting for NOTARY is an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. Know that NOTARY PUBLIC is a LEGAL BIDDING DOCUMENTS and can not be used by Illegal immigrants to perpetuate their illegal stay in the US.

Lily Turner

10 Oct 2018

From what the article above states, and what is in the California Notary Handbook from the Secretary of State 2018, California notaries can use a U.S. Passport for I.D., even though it does not include a physical description, but can only use those foreign passports that do include a physical description. Not all foreign passports do have the physical description, although I did see that French passports do.

Monica Voloshin

08 Oct 2018

Not mentioned but Pennsylvania can accept a foreign passport stamped by USCIS or a Mexican or Canadian government issued ID. Rule since 2017 Writing these articles would be best if it is followed by the correct statement for each state. You do not want people to chase the correct info for their state making this article unusable.

National Notary Association

08 Oct 2018

Hello Monica. Could you please provide us with the source for the Pennsylvania rule you described in your comment above?

Luz Rose

16 Oct 2017

I have not seen a physical description in a passport...so can we still use it?"Some states have more stringent requirements for foreign passports. California, Florida and Tennessee, for example, require all foreign passports to include a serial or ID number as well as a photo, physical description and signature of the holder"

National Notary Association

16 Oct 2017

To help us answer your question, can you please tell us what state you are commissioned in?

Stephen E Swetz

16 Oct 2017

In your article you stated " Florida also allows these driver’s licenses if the license has a serial number. In both of these states, the license does not have to be current as long as it was issued within the past five years" Ok, so my question is : do you mean five years from the issue date, or actually 5 years from the expiration date?

National Notary Association

16 Oct 2017

Five years from the issue date. Florida law specifies that identification presented for a notarization must be current or issued within the past 5 years (FS 117.05).

Kevin Burke

28 May 2017

Apostilles (documents which certify that the notary is a notary) are not prepared by the foreign notary himself or herself. For example, in the UK, a document notarised by a UK notary public would need to be mailed to the Foreign & Commonwealth Office in London for the apostille. This usually comes back in about three days, Also, almost all US states are party to uniform notarial acts which often are incorporated into the state's statutes and which permit the use of foreign notaries. It is only being fair to permit foreign nationals to use local notaries. I know if a US person was buying property in the UK that he or she would not be happy to be told they had to drive or fly for hours and back to see a UK notary in a UK consulate in some other state. Apparently, it's difficult for Americans to understand why British citizens would not be happy to take a day off work for the pleasure of dealing with embassy staff.

Kevin Burke

28 May 2017

A rant from a notary abroad: As an American lawyer in the UK, a Florida international notary and as an English notary public, I have to point out some things which are really frustrating. 1. Stop automatically requiring foreign persons to go to the US Embassy. Please recognise the use of foreign notaries! The Hague Convention permits the use of foreign notaries and all US states (and its states) accept Please consider permitting foreign persons outside the USA to use local foreign notaries and not automatically insist on going to the US Embassy in the relevant nation. In the UK for example you cannot simply drop in or even telephone for an appointment and a request is made online with an appointment - if you're lucky - being available in about 21 days. Many times there simply are no appointments available at all on their calendars for months. You should note that it is very unpleasant to go to a US Embassy for a notarisation or otherwise (it's similar to an extensive dealing with TSA when going to an airport), as well as the fact that funnily enough, not all foreign nationals live within just a few hours of a US Embassy. 2. Realise that an appointment for a notary will need to be made in advance. I get it. You’re with a title company, a bank, or law firm, and want foreign persons abroad who receive documents for a real estate closing on a Friday to get them notarised on that Friday. Or, the documents were delayed and you want the clients to see someone on the weekend. However, notaries abroad are typically all lawyers and appointments will need to be made in advance and fees will normally be charged for time spent on a lawyer's hourly rate. Even what appears to you to be a two minute job will likely take a minimum of 20 minutes. Please stop blindly requiring foreign persons abroad to go to a local bank to get documents notarised. Importantly, don’t accept a solicitor or other lawyer where a notary is required to be used, I have seen a solicitor “notarise” the signing of a Florida deed. This was invalid, it’s got to be a notary. 3. A USCIS stamp is not always required. The requirement referred to in the above article that a foreign passport should always have a USCIS stamp should not be blindly followed by US title companies, lawyers and banks, etc. who are dealing with the notarisation of US documents being notarised abroad. Clearly, the USCIS stamp is only to be required of a foreign person where the foreign person signing the document to be notarised is signing outside of the USA. People who don't travel to the US can need documents notarised abroad and providing the same forms or instructions to the notary abroad (such as myself) is ridiculous. I have many UK clients who for example buy property in Florida or sign business contracts without ever traveling to the USA. They will naturally not have a USCIS stamp on their passports. Also, notaries abroad have their own regulations such as they often are not permitted to leave blanks on the forms "to be filled out later".

L. Turner

02 Nov 2016

Thank you very much for clarifying the information about the Matricula consular cards, and the acceptance of US Passports in California.

L. Turner

01 Nov 2016

The California Secretary of State office says that if a form of I.D. does not include the physical description, the notary may not use it to identify a signer. That includes the Matricula consular cards from Mexico, mentioned above. SOS office told me this in a phone conversation. Please clarify why the NNA is saying that this will be an acceptable form of I.D. as of January 2017, when these I.D. do NOT have a physical description.

L. Turner

31 Oct 2016

How is it that US passports are acceptable I.D. for notaries when they do not include a physical description?

National Notary Association

02 Nov 2016

Hello. Some state laws allow Notaries to accept passport is acceptable proof of signer ID for a notarization, even though the passport does not include a physical description. For example, California Civil Code 1185 specifically lists a U.S. passport as an acceptable form of signer identification. Some other forms of ID accepted in California (such as a US military ID) are required by statute to include a physical description.

L. Turner

31 Oct 2016

Regarding the excerpt from above article: "One type of ID that causes confusion is a consular ID issued by the consulate of a foreign country. Matricula consular cards issued by Mexican consulates are among the most common of these. They look very official and reliable — especially the newer versions — but only Notaries in Illinois, Nevada and California (as of January 1, 2017) are specifically allowed to accept them." As I commented with the last article you posted about Matricula consular cards I.D.'s becoming legally acceptable for California notaries as of Jan. 2017, they are a NOT legally acceptable form of I.D. because they do not contain a physical description. It is inscrutable as to why they are being touted as acceptable as of next year, when I called the California Secretary of State's office and was informed that if they do not have a physical description, they are not acceptable. Please post the correct information.

National Notary Association

02 Nov 2016

Hello. We reviewed the article in question and found that there was conflicting information regarding the Mexican "matricula consular" card. While consular IDs issued by other nations do include a physical description, Mexico's does not. We have updated both articles to remove the incorrect information and apologize for any confusion.

Nancy

31 Oct 2016

What are the requirements for new jersey concerning state federal and foreign government ids?

National Notary Association

31 Oct 2016

Hi Nancy. New Jersey's ID guidelines for notarizations don't specifically address the question of accepting U.S. or state-issued ID versus foreign ID. The “New Jersey Notary Public Manual” instructs that signers present “at least one form of identification (ID) that provides a physical description of the signer — e.g., driver’s license. Note: Identification documents are not required if: 1) the signer is personally known to the Notary; or 2) a credible witness, known to both the signer and Notary, swears to the identity of the signer.”

Diane Lane

02 Nov 2015

our company has a satellite operation in Mexico. their drivers licenses don't always have photos. I've known these people for over 15 years, since we can't use 'known by notary' as a n acceptable ID, what are my options?

National Notary Association

04 Nov 2015

Hello Diane. To help us answer your question, can you please clarify: are you located in California or another bordering state?

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